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  1. #1

    ND v2: Drawing a stroke (line) around note markers

    We're planning on adding better note marker outline capabilities to v2, so for example you could have a filled note marker with a thick outline around it - something you can't currently do.

    There's an existing "outline" option which draws an outline around a note but offset with a small gap. Photoshop calls outlines a "stroke" so we're also thinking of changing the terminology so it's more consistent with other apps - and also as the new outline won't work the same as the old outline!

    Here's our current thoughts on how best to achieve this:

    "Colour" section in Inspector:
    • change this to be called "Fill", only controlling the fill colour
    • add an option for NONE, i.e. hollow note markers have no fill!

    Add a "Stroke" section in Inspector, supporting following settings:
    • on/off - i.e. to show the stroke outline or not
    • size - the thickness in pixels
    • colour options - default / custom
    • offset - a number of pixels for a gap between the stroke and the note marker, allows you to duplicate the effect of the existing "outline" option

    Remove the "Draw outline around note" option
    • as this can be done using the stroke options

    Text boxes and Fretboards currently have a "Border" section...
    • replace this with the "Stroke" section for consistency
    • add it to Images also!


    How does that sound? Hard to visualise as a bunch of bullet points I guess! I think it's the way to go..

    One side effect, to keep things simple, would be an impact on the "left/right colours". We'd keep this feature for SOLID i.e. filled notes but probably not support it on the stroke/outline, so you couldn't have left/right colours on hollow notes.

    My feeling is that very few people will be using left/right colours on hollow notes anyway as it's not nearly as clear/obvious as for solid notes!

    All feedback very much welcomed!
    Justin
    Author of Neck Diagrams

  2. #2

    Good design

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    We're planning on adding better note marker outline capabilities to v2
    This all sounds good. Yes, the more format control you add to the Inspector, the better. Stroke/fill is a familiar and logical way to deal with this capability.

    What you've described sounds like a big step forward. You will of course probably get requests for more stroke options than just thickness, and more fill options than just solid color and none. Dotted, dashed, and double outlines come to mind, as well as fill textures and transparency. It would also be logical to expect these same capabilities on text boxes and other objects. Basically, people are accustomed to the same level of graphic object format control that you find in MSOffice. But even without such comprehensive format changes, this will be a good feature.

    It does seem odd to me to have a NONE/SOLID distinction, and then a range of colors associated with SOLID. It seems more logical for NONE to be just another color. This would eliminate the issue of LEFT/RIGHT colors with NONE -- again, the left or right color could simply be NONE and thus transparent. Though perhaps I'm not clear on how you intend to control this.

    (Regarding LEFT/RIGHT colors: BTW I still find annoyances with this feature. I use it constantly. Let me again illustrate this, to show why it feels like I'm making many extra mouse clicks.
    diag..jpg
    In this example, after creating an arpeggio using the scale generator, I then color chords of interest. In this case, I started with the lowest (blue) notes. I then moved to the next (red) block of interest. Notes already colored blue, i.e. belonging to both chords, should then get colored blue+red instead of just red. However, to adjust these blue notes to be blue+red, I must first use the color picker to set the left color to blue, since their left/right colors are still set to the default. In other words I wind up having to pick 'blue' twice. Here's what I'd prefer: For the left/right colors to be the only "true" color properties managed for each note, rather than having three properties (color/left/right). Then the normal 'note color' picker would simply assign BOTH left and right colors to the chosen color. That way, the left/right colors would always agree with whatever is currently displayed. I'd also like a way to reassign recently chosen color(s) without opening the color picker, again perhaps using the MSOffice color selection model where the color can be chosen directly from the toolbar. But you've heard this song before.)
    Last edited by spinality; 09-07-2013 at 06:25 PM. Reason: clarification
    -- Trevor

  3. #3
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    So, to answer and give my take on these changes:

    Firstly, cheers on these and any changes you are implementing for us!

    I personally would check-out your assumption that not many use the split-colored hollow notes. I use it extensively, it is a very useful tool (probably the only) to show the hollow note's belonging to two over-lapping chords or scales. I frequently use hollow notes for ghostly (or "inactive" notes [such as the unused notes of a scale surrounding a chord derived from it , and the like], and many cases arise that require to show the over-lapping of such notes with another scale or chord in the vicinity. Eliminating this function would force the usage of solid fills which will afford split colors, but would deny the contrast effect between solid and hollow notes, and thus also the clear depiction of two distinct chords, scales or other systems being outlined.

    As for the other functions , I need to SEE them WORKING in order to positively criticise them. Perhaps you could supply some rough diagram of what you mean.
    But if you are working on putting out the ND2 version, I seem to remember the Tri-color note option which came up between us, and if THAT'S on the ND2 version, it would solve many of these issues without using the hollow note as a third entity, which right now is an improvisation.

    Lots of success, as always,
    Shmuel
    Last edited by Merkava; 09-08-2013 at 05:43 PM. Reason: missed out some nuances

  4. #4
    Thanks for the input guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by spinality
    You will of course probably get requests for more stroke options than just thickness, and more fill options than just solid color and none. Dotted, dashed, and double outlines come to mind, as well as fill textures and transparency.
    I think we can squeeze in some simple line styles initially, like the dotted & dashed variations, without getting bogged down with too much fancy stuff. Transparency is something I've wanted to do for ages but it impacts the PDF export so that'd probably still need to wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinality
    It does seem odd to me to have a NONE/SOLID distinction, and then a range of colors associated with SOLID. It seems more logical for NONE to be just another color.
    Good point. We're actually introducing a colour picker drop-down to the toolbar for the rich text support so we'll need to see about making use of for the notes also. The standard approach seems to be a white colour box with a line through it to indicate no colour setting.

    Re the left/right colour issues - this gets more complicated due to the addition of multiple splits - i.e. customisable numbers of colours, pie chart style if you will! This is something Shmuel alluded to when mentioned three colour support - we want to be more flexible and add say up to 6. I don't think your suggestion will work in this situation. I had also assumed the left/right settings should be independent from the full-solid colour though, which is why it's the way it is at the moment!

    FEAR NOT! Another thing we plan to add is a "Style Painter" tool which I think is found in MS Office - basically it'd be a style copy/paste function, so you'd click the tool then the note you want to mimic the style of (fill/stroke/etc) and then click on other notes to "paint" the same style on them. That's make life a whole lot easier, right?!


    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava
    I personally would check-out your assumption that not many use the split-colored hollow notes. I use it extensively...
    OK sounds like we'll need to support colour splits on the stroke also. Actually that probably does make sense seeing as you'll be able to make the stroke much thicker then it'll be more visible anyway and so more useful!

    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava
    As for the other functions , I need to SEE them WORKING in order to positively criticise them. Perhaps you could supply some rough diagram of what you mean.
    Better still, we're close to the first v2 Beta so you'll be able to play with it soon - both of you will be keen to give it a try I'm sure (& hope ) Probably not the style painter in the first public beta build though. So if things are still aren't quite right you can let us know and we'll change them until they are!
    Justin
    Author of Neck Diagrams

  5. #5
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    Excellent.

    Excellent !! Can't wait to see it at work. Especially the pie-split color.
    By the way, is it possible to make a pre-configured option of Rainbow note coloring? i.e Root=Red, 2nd=Orange, 3rd = Yellow etc . ... I sometimes think this scheme should be standardized for us musicians. I've also read scientific articles on the s
    subject which lend evidence of a corolation between the audio/visual wavelength spectrums. And infact I use those colors in accordance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    Thanks for the input guys!



    I think we can squeeze in some simple line styles initially, like the dotted & dashed variations, without getting bogged down with too much fancy stuff. Transparency is something I've wanted to do for ages but it impacts the PDF export so that'd probably still need to wait.



    Good point. We're actually introducing a colour picker drop-down to the toolbar for the rich text support so we'll need to see about making use of for the notes also. The standard approach seems to be a white colour box with a line through it to indicate no colour setting.

    Re the left/right colour issues - this gets more complicated due to the addition of multiple splits - i.e. customisable numbers of colours, pie chart style if you will! This is something Shmuel alluded to when mentioned three colour support - we want to be more flexible and add say up to 6. I don't think your suggestion will work in this situation. I had also assumed the left/right settings should be independent from the full-solid colour though, which is why it's the way it is at the moment!

    FEAR NOT! Another thing we plan to add is a "Style Painter" tool which I think is found in MS Office - basically it'd be a style copy/paste function, so you'd click the tool then the note you want to mimic the style of (fill/stroke/etc) and then click on other notes to "paint" the same style on them. That's make life a whole lot easier, right?!




    OK sounds like we'll need to support colour splits on the stroke also. Actually that probably does make sense seeing as you'll be able to make the stroke much thicker then it'll be more visible anyway and so more useful!



    Better still, we're close to the first v2 Beta so you'll be able to play with it soon - both of you will be keen to give it a try I'm sure (& hope ) Probably not the style painter in the first public beta build though. So if things are still aren't quite right you can let us know and we'll change them until they are!

  6. #6
    This all sounds very positive. A key principle to keep in mind is: Try to minimize the number of interactions needed for repetitive operations. So the colour-picker dropdown and style painter seem much superior to the current colour-picker dialogue. However, I still believe that the split color settings should all immediate reflect the current actual color. IMO, if you paint the note red, then its 2-6 slices should all get set to red, rather than staying at the default color. But that's me.
    -- Trevor

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by merkava
    Excellent !! Can't wait to see it at work. Especially the pie-split color.
    Don't get TOO excited just yet! The first Beta milestone won't have this in it.. Can't remember if it's planned for the 2nd or 3rd.

    Quote Originally Posted by merkava
    By the way, is it possible to make a pre-configured option of Rainbow note coloring? i.e Root=Red, 2nd=Orange, 3rd = Yellow etc
    This is on the task list, I think for the 2nd milestone. But this won't be tied into the splits though - we'd need a way of identifying a note as actually having multiple intervals for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by spinality
    Try to minimize the number of interactions needed for repetitive operations.
    Ahh and there you have it - the trouble is often identifying the repetitive operation! Kind of obvious in this example but not always.. depends on how the application is used which is why it's great to have user input as I'm but one user

    Quote Originally Posted by spinality
    So the colour-picker dropdown and style painter seem much superior to the current colour-picker dialogue. However, I still believe that the split color settings should all immediate reflect the current actual color. IMO, if you paint the note red, then its 2-6 slices should all get set to red, rather than staying at the default color. But that's me.
    I guess we can change the current behaviour to work this way in the first Beta milestone and see if anyone notices! Besides yourself of course!!
    Justin
    Author of Neck Diagrams

  8. #8
    In addition to what's been discussed I have the following thought: Since you're planning on allowing one to set the thickness of the stroke, would it be possible to set the thickness of the border of the marker itself? And the gap between the two? I know, always asking for more

    Also, I'm in the camp of multiple colors in hollow markers but of course technical limitations and time to implement have to be taken into account.

    Kind Regards,
    Fleet

  9. #9
    Good point. Actually I had thought the stroke setting WAS for the marker border rather than for a separate outline. Ideally each graphic entity or component should have its own controllable properties. We do all understand that technical complexity needs to trump convenience, of course. But wherever practical, every feature should be subject to control via the Inspector or toolbar icons.
    -- Trevor

  10. #10
    Yes that's right, the stroke IS the border, and the OFFSET is the gap!

    Good to hear another vote for keeping the colour splits for the hollow notes, i.e. on the stroke; makes it clearer that it will be something of use
    Justin
    Author of Neck Diagrams

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